start

Lab Scope Training - Where to begin

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welcome to another live wells tech

training event we are so happy you are

here all right

today is for everyone who doesn't do it

every day and what we're going to do is

get that lab scope out of the tool box

and get it on the car and start doing

some checking and we're going to go

through the steps it takes to get you

there now we have seen we have talked to

many technicians on the phone that are

reluctant to even pull their lab scope

out and we're going to talk about why

that is and how to cure that and I got

Dave Miller here today to give me a hand

on that okay but before we bring Dave in

let's talk about the t-shirt yes winning

one of these t-shirts once you love it

yes it's a great t-shirt by the way love

them they're very comfortable all right

first one in with the correct answer

will have a t-shirt sent out to them

tomorrow all right

um this is a very fitting question

because as of yesterday

wels vehicle electronics is now part of

NGK NGK bought us about three months ago

and the conversion complete conversion

occurred yesterday on July 1st and we

are now part of an DK so with that in

mind what was the first Japanese car to

be produced in the United States what

was the first Japanese car to be

produced in the United States and I'm

going to it's going to be multiple

choice this time

all right e Honda Accord B Mazda Miata

by the way we got a Mazda Miata case

study coming up here pretty soon see

Toyota Camry and D Nissan Maxima so

texting the correct answer on

ford mazda miata Toyota Camry or Nissan

Maxima and first one in with car cancer

will get a t-shirt okay Dave a mile on

in come on in let's let's show what we

have here this is Dave Miller and you've

met Dave Miller before he's been working

here for a couple years right a couple

years couple years prior to this for

over 40 years he worked at an engine

rebuilding shop and he was the lead

diagnostic person okay so being the lead

diagnostic person at your old place of

employment how often did you pull this

hope out not enough I was one of the

guys intentional afraid to use it

afraid to use well basically because it

was just not the knowledge there and I

would get it all once in a while he was

digging a little bit too much time and I

usually took it out when I had a problem

and got to that point you know and I

start to get to learn to use it it's up

to be another month before I get it out

again right and then there I'd be back

almost at square one won't forget

learning it over again yeah and I just

write it was many times where I'd put a

part on a car and then that didn't fix

it and then I finally got to using the

skull it was a laugher yeah it should

have been the first resort and one of

the things you said was you didn't have

time to get it out which is very

interesting and when you say time it

doesn't necessarily equate to two times

or seconds or minutes it equates to

money right right because if you're

sending a lot of time getting up to

speed before you even use the tool there

you go that's not a good thing

right right and that's very frustrating

too because your narrow lot of pressure

your boss wants it's undiagnosed and

here you are reading the manual on your

lab scope you know to get it going right

well everybody wishes that they could

put their scanner on there which is what

y'all do first and right get a code oh

it's the old two and it'd be nice that

you could just go put well you know

everybody knows it doesn't always work

that way

No

very worried it's you got to do some

Diagnostics right you've got to know do

some diagnostics and in order to do

those diagnostics properly you have to

use a lab school no way around it more

so now than ever because of all

electronics on the cars and especially

Latios sensors where magnetic resistors

you could write an AC reading well

another Hall effect you don't get much

other than when you are nothing in

that's going to help you all this very

cold water is not going to really help

you at that point huh and one of the

problems with the meter is that it'll

read about a good meter worried about

five times a second and that seems fast

but when your computer is working over a

million times a second it's not fast

enough to keep up right okay and that's

where a lab scope is it works just as

fast as your computer and you're behind

the glitches right it'll find the

glitches and that's that's what you need

today and we are constantly getting

calls on intermittent seas and it's very

difficult to find them without the right

tools and the knowledge to use it so

there you go that's now how do you feel

about oh it's great and now that I know

how to use it

it's a time saver right big time saver

because you put it on there and get you

know as an example checking compression

on a car nowadays is a lot of work right

I'm where you got to pull an intake put

a scope on you can have it done in at

the max 15 minutes yeah I mean by the

time you look up everything get hooked

up compared to basically ours take a

Ford cherkasy a couple hours to check

all eight soldiers on one of the Russian

yeah absolutely sculpt when you said

time saver to me that equates to money

maker this is a money maker big time if

you learn how to use it properly natural

we're gonna focus on we're going to

start right from the very beginning okay

as far as how come there's only one

ground connection our turn right right

why is that because you only need the

one drawn connection and the other these

are all an active together get around

right okay

so there's a question right there that

Dave had when you started playing with

the lab scope and there you go if so if

you have that question that's why it's a

common ground for each one of the

and you only need one girl all right

that's why the first couple cables will

have the grounds on him and from the

cable going over there in a couple of

the last to go off of the other ones

right and that was also question to me

when I first start using like you know

what it work yeah that's going on here

right okay so now one of the things you

want to do to and you learn that when

you started here too is you want to be

organized with your stuff you know

especially when it comes to your lab

scope because you don't want to be

chasing around the shop looking for your

cords your leads you know on all this

other stuff and and so what we do is we

have them in these little pouches we

have all our leads in there and then we

have all of our stuff over here

different leads that we can use if we

need them we've got our fuse buddies in

here and we also have our amp clamp

right here and also what we have in here

is is this guy right here which is your

your banana plug replacement right be

sure and have that that kind of stuff so

it's all right in one spot so when we

grab the scope that's all ya do is grab

this stuff grab the scope boom right

there and also back home that was always

an issue with me they didn't have these

type of good acupuncture pull right back

when I was first yielding the scope and

sometimes I have a paper clip in there

and you don't make good connection and

then you don't get a good waveform is it

the part is that my waveform is in my

connection right on is my leads you

don't know what that pointing and having

a good back program we keep stressing

this I know you're probably sick of

hearing about it so importantly but it's

so important they have a good back

combing and when we work on this up what

is it's a 98 Grand Am will try back

probing it with a couple different back

probes that we have and we'll see what

works the best you know and I'm telling

you once you get these acupuncture back

probes you'll never go to anything else

they are just awesome

okay so get organized get your stuff

together you know so you know where it

is you don't have to be searching around

for it the first thing you're going to

do let's say a car came in let's say

this 98

came in with a TPS code in it because we

put the first thing we're going to do

when we diagnose anything is you're

going to put a scan to honor you're

going to see what the computer is you

know do we have any codes in Maher what

is it going to tell us right up front so

once we put the scan tool on what's our

next step to go out there and test the

TPS or what should we do you know right

step is to go to the computer correct

right and that's another thing computer

goes hand in hand with your lab scope so

if you need to get some experience on

the computer do that computer today is a

tool it's a tool that you can use and

it's a time saver it's a money maker

that's how you make money these days and

you got to have you got to either be a

member of IE TN or identification

something is will get that code will go

in to our office and we'll work on the

computer look it up on identify look it

up on our ATM look it up on all data get

the get the wiring diagram for it so you

know which color wire is and all that

that kind of thing because uh a computer

is a money maker today and it might lead

you in just the right direction maybe at

TPS had problems with antifreeze getting

in it right or who knows who knows and

at least it'll send you in the right

direction or if it has a very common

problem when you're doing the job take

special note of that and look see if

there's wires rubbed through in this

area that kind of thing okay so you got

to work on the computer by the way you

got to charge for that tube if you spend

15 minutes on the computer it's 15

minutes worth of labor okay because

you're fixing the car even though you're

on a computer you are repairing a car

okay why are you daya Graham's they are

optional I like them a lot of lab scopes

today especially like this one by the

way we use the snap-on stuff not

as we love them the best because we felt

they were the most popular that's why we

purchased these there are a lot of

different lab scopes out there that

worker well we got a new one coming up

on one channel one we're going to try

that out too from alias way but what you

know all that works too and so you can

look up

Pinole charts on here yeah and regular

under there you go to component location

support and then you put in the way you

put in the make and model and then go to

component locate component tests I

should say and it'll come up with a

different test you hit what you want to

look at and it'll you show you the pin

over here to pin off you know you see in

the best location to get it right okay

it's help not always accurate because

there's too many different variances

right that's why you want one both right

and generally works out but every car

that's right this way let's say we don't

have a 5 volt reference and we want to

go back to the computer and check to see

if we have a 5 volt reference coming out

of a computer make sure it's not in a

wearing right this way we got it right

here yeah and we can still write you

know before right so it's always good

it's all right to me I always print out

a wiring diagram and that's your map so

it's up to you so whichever way you want

to use but just remember this isn't

always accurate this isn't always

accurate either so you the more

information you got the better at or off

chances are you know great okay now what

we're going to do is we're going to talk

about the grid or the face of your lab

scope and what that means what what it's

telling you so in the meantime why don't

you go over and start it and hook up on

the car and then I'll meet you over

there

good all right

got enough arms and okay we made right

I'll see you in a minute okay we look up

over here on our whiteboard we do have a

grid and the grid like this will always

have an X to connect any and it will

have a y-axis okay and the horizontal

line is the x axis and the vertical line

there's a y axis the way I always

remember

listen and you know I might come in

handy I don't know if you really need to

know enough but the way I always

remember it is why to the sky okay so

why is our vertical okay grid and X is

our horizontal okay with the grid you

have dividers one two three four five

you can have a number of different

dividers in there depending upon how you

have it set but what this means X is our

turning

okay this is how long our signal is

going to take like let's say we had a

line that came from here

and went all the way over to here

because there are five divisions and

we're at one second per division for

this line to get from here to here it

will take five seconds

okay that's what our that's what our

x-axis is time okay why is our amplitude

oops let's both our own here is an eye

right there amplitude which is our

voltage how high do we have our setter

do we set our voltage and this also has

five divisions in it and let's say it's

set to one volt per division so if we

had a signal that got this high that

would equate to five volts alright and

the reason why they call this as a grid

is because we're going to do voltage

over time and let's say let's say we are

testing a TPS and it starts out at one

volt

right here okay and we work the lever on

the TPS back and forth we work it one

way and we get a signal similar to this

okay so what this is telling us is for

this to reach 5 volt let's say this is

the point that it reached 5 volts

if we draw a line straight down from

that we come almost to three I don't

know if that's a straight line or not

but you have to bear with me and down at

the three so it if we want to analyze

this it got to five volts in three

seconds okay that's our grid that's how

it works and TPS is an analog signal and

another thing that speeds up the use of

a lab scope is to have a general idea of

the pattern you should be getting off of

the part that you're testing okay so you

got to kind of have a good idea okay a

Hall effect I should be getting if it's

a 5 volt reference Hall effect that

should be getting a 5 volt on-off signal

okay

frequency is going to determine how fast

the engine is going or the time

frequency north

is it's going to depend upon how fast

the engines running that type of thing

okay as to how frequent that signal is

going to occur both if we're looking for

our five volt signal we should be going

from near zero up by volts and down

that's a digital signal what we're going

to get off of the TPS is an analog

signal it's going to slope up and it's

going to slow down as we move the lever

and I'm certain you've all seen that but

we're going to do it again for you right

on the car step by step okay all right I

think Dave is ready at the car I'm going

to go over and join him and why don't

you come along

come on hey it is a mark alright so we

got our 1998 pontiac grand am i right

what is everyone good old car

good old car up the old 3.13 yeah couple

hundred thousand e's real easy yeah

yep they were good engine all right so

what we got going here well we got going

we're going to do a very basic test

we're going to check the throttle

position sensor voltage analog voltage

of course the first thing you do when

you're going to do that you got to know

which wire to go to right so first thing

I did when I'm doing a job like this get

the wiring diagram oh yeah you got to

you know if you got a scanner where you

can go to the component or test you

could do that go this way you can look

at the whole circuit like we were

talking about works out great in case

you've got to be out to the computer you

got the information right here yep and

the thing is you know if you are going

to go on the vehicle or go you're going

to do a test all right you got this

vehicle coming in it's got this trouble

code that kind of thing and you're at

the computer and you are looking up

identificar

the same time I always go to all data or

whatever program you're using and print

out the wiring diagram now we talked

about it before you could actually get

the pin out right here right and and you

can do that too and that's fine I just

like to have the whole map in front of

and that way if there's any questions I

got the information right there I don't

have to go back to the computer again

that's why you got your computer right

okay okay so now we're going to hook

this goat up all right

so we're going to we got a lead right

right let's see that later there you go

let's see okay hand it out good leading

all right so this one here this lead

right here this comes apart now and we

just got an alligator clip on there and

this is going to be our ground and if

you look right here you can see our

ground here's channel one two three and

four so we're going to go into the

ground pin right here that is our ground

point okay there and then we're going to

connect that to battery negative right

here the best place to go is right on

the battery right I mean nowadays a lot

of the batteries are back in the

backseat then just find a good ground

point underneath right if you can't get

to the battery go there as thing or else

you know if there's a battery ground

connection on the block there too or you

know just make sure you got a good

ground connection and in future events

we're going to show what happens when

you don't have a good ground connection

and what to look for that and and go

from that point so for right now this

vehicle we're going to go to the right

to the battery okay next okay next is

going to be our main lead for going on

to the sensor output okay and you'll

notice on your there's four this is a

four channel scope you want to make sure

you color code the leads to this because

basically the first ones got all the

grounds on it the second one will have

one ground right and if you put a red in

there you wouldn't have the ground

what's pretty self-explanatory right you

also physical particularly that's how

this scope is set up yours might be

different but we're going to go into

channel one and yes we're going to use a

yellow lead and just put it in there all

right okay

you're going to have to put this on top

because that it's got all good on top

there gotcha

okay so right here well there it is yeah

okay this is got let me show them let's

share all right hook that back on to the

battery you okay yeah all right

so we're kind of a little bit mixed up

here but that's how it is in the shop it

really is okay as you know all right

this has got grounding leads for this

channel number one and we have to put

this into the ground and then connect

the ground to here okay that's all that

works so you got to make sure like Dave

was saying you got to have the right

lead so we're going to hook our ground

up actually later so we're going to go

into channel one first and then we're

going to go into the ground with our

adapter that has the adapter on it or

our connector that has the adapter on it

so we can hook the ground to the vehicle

to that okay

that's how it looks when you get done

all right and we're just going to do one

channel today and they will show you how

we're going to hook up we're also going

to show you back probing and why we keep

stressing you got to have good back

probes all right go ahead - okay well

first off this weather packin Ector on

here is pretty much like you know it's a

real tight fitting connector on it

that's good you know this you got to

remember guys this is a 1998 vehicle and

the weather packs weren't quite as tight

as what they are today today they're a

lot tighter to make sure there's no

corrosion in there

so go ahead okay this is a type that I

also had the older type probe and you'll

notice it's fairly thick compared to the

ones that we're always talking about

this right in here and the end didn't

have a point on it I usually took it and

ground a point on them and that also is

another point about it it doesn't have a

nice end for getting here right so now

you're going to have to hook up on how

we'll get our clip to that and see this

one to get it connected that one you can

just poke together

do that move that back hold with day we

can't locate that in the jail okay okay

again right back a little bit further

there you go here we go

it's got the nice end on it yep okay so

you can just plug right in okay let's

see how well the the old style goes into

that weather seal here you go and as a

diagram it said we got to go to the blue

wire yep and I'm pushing on there

pushing on there pretty good I see you

are you know and I can get it in there

but I'd really be forcing it okay so

today's weather seals you probably

aren't and we've tried that before we

weren't able to get that in what's

really bad as on some of the computers

they're really small yep I mean well

gage wire that what this is okay so now

let's do the our normal kiss that code

what we usually use the acupuncture just

came back here get right there and boom

whoop I'm right in there no problem a

little different no should be able to

get away form of everything we're on

actually we got to get her on you think

we got a background here or something

do you have a key are ya good kia okay

there we go got her yep now that's right

okay all right so um okay Brian let's go

over to the scope shot there we go all

right as you can see we got our scope

set up here and let's look at how we

have it set up first all right now your

scope the way you said it per division

is going to be different that we get to

that point but the settings are the same

as far as what you would do with it okay

right now we are set on five volts per

division see right there five volts we

can go up to ten if we go down to two

volts per division we'll show you what

happens here in a second okay we're

going to start out at out at 5 volts per

division and here's our time here's our

x-axis k-member why to the sky X's are

horizontal and it's set at one second

per division okay so let's go back let's

go down open this up here now let's look

and see how our divisions are set up and

let me move over it just a little bit

all right

you can see our zero point is right here

it's for our Y and our x axis is zero

and if we go all the way across our

first division is point one so it's one

tenth of one second our division on this

and this is set up so it's one second

from here to here for that sine wave to

occur okay so this is one tenth of a

second 2/10 3/10 and on up here remember

this is our voltage this is our Y Y to

the sky we're set at zero

and it's point 5 volts 1 volt 1.5 you

can see right now our signal is about

0.7 volts somewhere in there and it goes

all the way up and it's this whole scale

right here is equal to 5 volts okay so

that's how we that's how we're going to

do it alright let's let's go ahead and

do that once

fasty like okay that's fine just leave

it right there

and I'm just going to move my picture

back a little bit so you can see it

going to try to it's a little there we

go

right there okay so now here is our TPS

sweep you can see Dave kind of hesitated

right here as he was moving it up that's

why we got this little hump change there

and when you let it go it's a lot more

linear and smooth we started out at 1.5

volts and as he accelerated it or turn

the accelerator we went up to about 4.5

volts that's where it evened out and

swoop back down okay so at the point

that we reach 4.5 volts if we do all

align right down from that and there's

ways to get cursors in here we'll get

that at a later date

it took him a half a second to get up to

4.5 volts okay you can see that we have

no dropouts on us so that TPS is it

actually looks like it's functioning

just fine now when you sweep it

depending upon how fast you sweep it

that's what's going to determine your

time scale like if you don't sweep it

completely within one second you're only

going to get half of this pattern that

type of thing so let's go back let's go

back here and let's switch to

get open here let's switch to five

seconds okay so now we switched we

change our X and now it's five seconds

from here to here so this is one second

two second three second four seconds

five seconds okay go ahead do okay now

you can see our pattern is quite a bit

different and he was able to make it

easily within the time factor so if we

look at this we reached we started at

about one two seconds let's say two

seconds and we reach the pinnacle or the

top point about two and a half seconds

okay and learning how to read this from

one pattern to another is real important

so you got to practice this and just do

what we're doing and just understand

this grid what we're looking at okay I'm

going to do it one more time

and I'm going to change it instead of

having a 5 volts per division we're

going to go ten volts per division

okay all right Dave go ahead

now you can see we got virtually the

same pattern that we had before but it's

much smaller it's not we can't see the

detail as well and that's what happens

when you change the voltage like let's

say we want to look at a certain part of

this pattern and we want to look at it

very closely okay so I'm going to turn

it back on and instead of having it ten

volts per division we're going to go

down to two okay

so go ahead do okay remember we're I to

work volts per division and if you look

over here here's one volt here's two

volts right there so there's ten

dividers in there but here's one volt

here's two all right so if we go over

here we started about two and a half

seconds in but our pattern went right

off the scale because we're set on too

low of a volt division so keep that in

mind if you can't if your pattern is

going off the scale going out at the top

where use your voltage all right I think

that's about it yeah

okay now Bryan do we have any answers

okay good

we're on the right side okay good Marvin

all right

our to channel scopes enough we're

diagnosing today's automotive

electronics you know what Marvin that's

a heck of a good question and we kind of

asked ourselves that because the the

scope that we're going to be getting is

a one channel scope and we're just

talking about how limited that actually

is a two channel scope you can do just

about everything I think there's going

to be times when you're going to run

into problems because you're going to

have a separate cams multiple cam

sensors that you're going to want to

look at

I know Cadillacs got four cam sensors on

them and so we got a four channel scope

and I'm questioning if that's enough I

think to do most of the most of the

Diagnostics yeah two channel scope will

work there may be occasional times when

you're going to need more but I mean to

get you started and get you going a to

channel scope is perfect okay Marvin

yeah and we'd like to hear from you back

back from you too Marvin and let us know

how you're doing on that yeah okay

Carlos oh he says hi well uh

Mexico here Welles electronics the best

in the world alright NGK is great

excellent okay do we have an answer here

Honda Accord Frank you are correct Honda

Accord is the correct answer that was in

1992 and it was Mary villas Ohio I see

you get that on here very good that was

a plant in Maryville zoo Marysville Mary

Marysville thank Marysville Ohio yes

okay and Terri sorry it wasn't Toyota at

this time get a shirt I think you got a

shirt already anyway so Frank send me an

email

Brian you want to ring it up real quick

there you go send me an email at mark

dot Hicks at Wells ve where to send the

shirt your mailing address and your

shirt size we'll get that out to you

today

all right perfect now with this type of

work and we've talked about this number

of times and and Dave has talked about

it you have to practice practice you

have to practice it and I don't want you

going any further than what we showed

you today especially if you're just

starting out with scopes what I want

we're going to do another one next month

in the meantime what I want to do is do

at least two or three for TPS is just

like what we did and play with the scope

and set it at two different levels and

see what happens get familiar with that

grid because that's going to come into

play very heavily in the future so you

got to make sure you understand that

grid so there is your homework

assignment until next month at this time

I want you to go through three four or

five what whatever time you have TPS and

I want you to back probe them I want you

to print out the wiring diagram or do it

however you're going to do it just like

you're going to test that vehicle okay

there's your homework all right anything

else do you know just one thing I did

want to mention what you're looking for

when you have a bad one as that slopes

going up yep boom drops down to zero

that's a bad one

that's what you'd be look you're looking

for you're looking for a glitch right

I've made assurance oh that's a good

point

and you know we didn't really point that

out but this one was a good TPS and

that's what it should look like it

should be a complete slope if you get a

dropout in it that TPS is bad and needs

to be replaced so uh that's anything

else yeah okay very good thank you for

attending and without you there we would

not be here we do appreciate it and

we'll see you again in two weeks

take care and see you next time and well

wells great garage

you